More stupidity from the courts concerning #CyberStalking

April 25, 2012
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As (Volokh) noted last year, a federal prosecutor indicted a man for his campaign of insulting Twitter messages about a Buddhist religious leader, and a federal judge then dismissed the indictment on First Amendment grounds.
Some of the Twitter posts might have been seen as threatening, but the government’s theory wasn’t that they were threatening, but that they where posted “with the intent to harass and cause substantial emotional distress to” the religious leader, and actual caused such distress, in violation of the federal antistalking statute, 18 U.S.C. § 2261A. The district court correctly held that the statute was unconstitutional as applied, and left open the possibility that it might be unconstitutional on its face as well. The government appealed, but earlier this month decided to drop the appeal.
Now the Senate, rather than tightening the law to prevent its being applied to constitutionally protected speech, is considering expanding it. Section 107 of the Violence Against Women Reauthorization Act of 2011 (which (Volokh) blogged about below, as to a different constitutionally troublesome provision) would take the existing statute and have it cover not just speech that causes substantial emotional distress, but also speech that “attempts to cause, or would be reasonably expected to cause substantial emotional distress,” so long as the speaker is intending to (among other things) “harass” the target. Anyone who

with the intent to … harass … uses the … any interactive computer service … to engage in a course of conduct that … causes, attempts to cause, or would be reasonably expected to cause substantial emotional distress to [the person or the person’s family member]

would now be committing a federal crime. If the statute were just limited to conduct and speech intended to threaten someone — which the rest of the statute does cover — there would be no constitutional problem. But trying to outlaw speech that is made “with the intent to … harass” and “would be reasonably expected to cause substantial emotional distress” often violates the First Amendment, as the federal judge rightly held in the Twitter case. It seems to me that Congress should be fixing this constitutional problem rather than expanding it.

This is fascism. plain and simple. proving a person has intent to upset another person is no reason to take their free expression away. I have experience with this kind of legal abuse. I’m not allowed to tell you about it apparently… or rather I’d rather not find out how stupid the legal system is again.


Is It a Crime to Publish Parody Videos That Use “Lewd … Language” Meant to “Embarrass and Emotionally Torment” Police Officers?

December 26, 2011

(Volokh.com) Yes, the Renton (Wash.) city prosecutor’s office concludes, applying the Washington “cyberstalking” statute — an excellent example of the dangers of the broad “cyberbullying” and “harassment” statutes that I have often condemned. KIRO-TV reports:

The Renton City Prosecutor wants to send a cartoonist to jail for mocking the police department in a series of animated Internet videos.
The “South-Park”-style animations parody everything from officers having sex on duty to certain personnel getting promoted without necessary qualifications…. [Last week, the prosecutor filed] a search warrant accusing an anonymous cartoon creator, going by the name of Mr. Fiddlesticks, of cyberstalking (RCW 9.61.260). The Renton Police Department and the local prosecutor got a judge to sign off as a way to uncover the name of whoever is behind the parodies….
The series of web-based short cartoons feature a mustachioed street cop and a short-haired female bureaucrat. The dry, at times, witty banter between the two touches on some embarrassing insider secrets, some of which seem to match up with internal affairs investigations on file within Renton PD.
Cartoon Character of Officer: “Is there any reason why an anonymous video, with no identifying information that ties it to the department or city is being taken more seriously than officers having sex on duty, arguing with outside agencies while in a drunken stupor off duty, sleeping while on duty, throwing someone off a bridge, and having inappropriate relationships with coworkers and committing adultery?”
Cartoon Character of Bureaucrat: “The reason is that internal dirt is internal. The department will crucify certain people and take care of others.”
A criminal court document, uncovered by Team 7 Investigators, not only shows how badly the city of Renton wants to “out” the cartoonist (who goes by the name MrFiddlesticks), but states some of the fake character’s lines discuss real life incidents….

Here’s the potentially relevant text from Rev. Code Wash. 9.61.260:

A person is guilty of cyberstalking if he or she, with intent to harass, intimidate, torment, or embarrass any other person, and under circumstances not constituting telephone harassment, makes an electronic communication [defined as transmission of information by wire, radio, optical cable, electromagnetic, or other similar means … includ[ing] … internet-based communications] to such other person or a third party: (a) Using any lewd, lascivious, indecent, or obscene words, images, or language, or suggesting the commission of any lewd or lascivious act ….

Under the prosecutor’s view, any statement — including on a blog, in a YouTube video, in a newspaper article, on television, or whatever else — is a crime if it is made “with intent to harass, … torment, or embarrass” the subject of the person “[u]sing any lewd, lascivious, indecent, or obscene words, images, or language.” A comedian’s joke that “lewd[ly]” or “lascivious[ly]” described President Clinton’s behavior with Monica Lewinsky, or for that matter Congressman Weiner’s behavior, would be a crime if it was made “with intent to … embarrass” the President or the Congressman. The Hustler parody attacking Jerry Falwell, which the Supreme Court held to be protected against civil liability under the “intentional infliction of emotional distress tort,” would be a crime. Indeed, in this very case, the theory is that the videos are criminal because they described alleged police sexual misconduct using “lewd” or “indecent” words with the intent to torment or embarrass particular officers. (The theory expressed in the document — a search warrant application — is that the videos sufficiently identify the particular police officers who were involved in the incidents to which the video alludes.)
If the prosecutor is right that the statute should be interpreted this broadly, then it’s clearly unconstitutionally overbroad. Speech to the public doesn’t lose its constitutional protection because it’s intended to torment or embarrass. (It may lose such protection when it’s intended to be perceived as a true threat of criminal attack, but that’s not the issue here.) Nor does lose its constitutional protection because it uses “lewd” or “indecent” terms. And while one-to-one speech said to an unwilling listener may in some circumstances be restricted — which is the reason traditional telephone harassment laws, if properly crafted, may be constitutional — this rationale can’t be used to suppress speech said to the public, even if the people discussed in the speech are tormented or embarrassed by it.
Moreover, the statute would be clearly unconstitutional as applied to this video, and the prosecutor and the judge ought to know this. (The prosecutor is Renton Chief Prosecutor Shawn Arthur; the judge is James Cayce.) A search warrant can only be issued if there is probable cause to believe that it will uncover evidence of a crime; since the material described in the affidavit can’t be made criminal under the cited statute, given the First Amendment, the warrant ought not have been issued. The government is not permitted to use its coercive power to identify the author of this constitutionally protected video.
Thanks to Cory Andrews for the pointer. UPDATE: I originally said I didn’t know which judge signed this warrant, but that was a mistake on my part — Judge Cayce’s signature is right there on the last page.

yes… that sounds like Washington State… but it would be illegal for the same reasons for me to explain why I know this. Censorship is alive and well in the state of facebook. They will extradite people from outside their state to uphold their backward views on free expression. It happened to me too. The most amusing finding from out there is that a FOIA document can be published, but it is illegal to comment on it. I find it outrageous that people are not reacting to any of this… not just in Washington State, but in the rest of the country where the state seems to think they can cherry pick people out of their homes who offend the judicial in the social networking state.


Boy, 14, Supposedly Found Dead Over Gay Bullying

September 22, 2011

Here is the problem with the media and their slanted bias. Where is the evidence of bullying? Young people get bullied all the time, and I have no doubt that this kid experienced some level of teasing, but for some reason some people have thick enough skin to move on. With the amount of online exposure this story has gotten, one would expect there to of been some kind of exposure over who was bullying this kid. Why wasn’t there? Perhaps because this kid had other issues… or perhaps because it was because this kid was bullying back in other ways and just did not have the strength to stand up. The problem here is when it gets emotional and people stop looking for the truth and are just looking to push an agenda that is hostile… usually to straight men. Further… he says he didn’t have any male friends. Perhaps it wasn’t the men who were teasing him. Perhaps they were trying to avoid him because they didn’t want to go into his sexual sphere. Perhaps the teasing came from the women in his life? But the straight men will be the ones they will blame. There is no evidence yet of anything, but people jump to conclusions. If a boy were straight think about it from his position for a second… Boys and girls have a tendency to stick to their own gender because it is stressful to deal with sexual complications and go about daily routine. If a boy were gay then the other boys would avoid him, not because they hate him, but because it is a situation that makes life a lot harder for them. So this boy was probably surrounded by girls… who did not treat him as one of their own. How can we expect people to get along if we can’t say the way it really is? It is less likely that this boy was teased by the boys around him, but rather he was probably teased by girls his own age… and yet the police will probably be looking for men (can you blame the straight males for trying to avoid that?)

( Libra Bunda ) Jamey Rodemeyer became the latest in a string of suicides by young Americans who had been abused or ridiculed because of their sexuality, in several cases over the internet. In May, he recorded a video message for the “It Gets Better” campaign, through which young gay people, along with celebrities and national figures such as Barack Obama, try to encourage each other to remain hopeful through difficult experiences. “People would just keep sending me hate, telling me that gay people go to hell,” he said in the recording, which was posted to YouTube. Jamey, who had just began high school, received support from his parents, Tracy and Tim Rodemeyer, and went through counselling. Recently “he was saying how great school was going, how happy he was, his grades were great,” his father told local television reporters. But in retrospect, Mr Rodemeyer said, “he fooled everybody. He put on a brave face and I wish he wouldn’t have.” » | Jon Swaine, New York | Wednesday, September 21, 2011
( ABC )”The special victims unit is looking into the circumstances prior to his death,” Captain Michael Camilleri said. “We are not sure if there is anything criminal or not.”
No bullying laws exist in New York State, according to Camilleri, so police would have to determine whether aggravated harassment charges fit this case. Whether suspects would be tried in juvenile court would depend on whether the alleged bully was 16 or older, he said.
…you just knew they needed an excuse to limit the constitution in a Blue State and take our rights to free expression away
Police said they had spoken with Williamsville School Superintendent Scott G. Martzloff, who has pledged the district’s cooperation.
“We’ve heard that there were some specific students, an identifiable group of students, that had specifically targeted Jamey, or had been picking on him for a period of time,” Police Chief John C. Askey told the Buffalo News.
Jamey sent out many signals on social networking sites that he was struggling with his sexuality, even though he encouraged others on the It Gets Better project websiteYouTube to fight off the bullies.
He killed himself this weekend after posting an online farewell.
Lady Gaga weighed in on the situation via twitter: “Bullying must become illegal. It is a hate crime,” she tweeted.
“I am meeting with our President. I will not stop fighting. This must end. Our generation has the power to end it. Trend it #MakeALawForJamey,” the singer posted to twitter last night.
Students had been posting hate comments with gay references on his Formspring account, a website that allows anonymous posts.
“JAMIE IS STUPID, GAY, FAT ANND [sic] UGLY. HE MUST DIE!” one post said, according to local reports. Another read, “I wouldn’t care if you died. No one would. So just do it 🙂 It would make everyone WAY more happier!”
…ok… so who said it? Probably the other nerdy kid who was being bullied. start your panic now!
Friends reported the bullying to guidance counselors. But everyone, including his mother, thought he had grown stronger.
His death coincides with a national summit this week sponsored by the U.S. Department of Education in Washington, D.C., an effort to stem the toll of bullying school children.
Speaking at the second annual Federal Partners in Bullying Prevention Summit were the parents of Justin Aaberg, a gay 15-year-old from Champlain, Minn., who hanged himself after being bullied. The parents, Tammy and Shawn Aaberg, said that one form of the bullying came from a student religious group whose members told Justin that he was going to hell because he was gay.
“Justin was a smiley, happy boy who loved to play his cello,” said his parents. “School systems need to do more to protect LGBT students from bullying, and not turn their back on them because of their sexual orientation.”
Rodemeyer’s suicide also sets off a somber beginning to LGBT History Month in October.
“Jamey’s suicide is a tragic reminder of the vulnerability of gay teens,” said Malcolm Lazin, founder and executive director of the Equality Forum, which focuses on LGBT civil rights and education.
“They are bullied and marginalized,” he said. “While some may say that Jamey took his life, it is unrelenting homophobia that murdered him.”
Jamey’s mother, Tracy Rodemeyer, who did not return calls from ABCNews.com, told the Buffalo News that her son had been questioning his sexuality and had expressed thoughts of suicide, but had also been encouraged by good friends and was a “happy” and “strong” teen.
Friends described him as caring and friendly, and he had been seeking help from a social worker and therapist.
According to the National Center for Educational Statistics, 28 percent of students aged 12 to 18 reported that they were bullied in school during the 2008-2009 school year. Bullying also slows down as children get older from a high of 39 percent of all sixth graders to 20 percent of high school seniors.
The most overwhelming form of bullying is done through ridicule, insult and rumors, rather than physical aggression, according to the report.
The rate of victimization among lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender (LGBT) students has remained constant between 1999 and 2009, the latest date for which there are statistics, according to the National Climate Survey conducted by the Gay, Lesbian and Straight Education Network (GLSEN).
Parents and educators say they face significant challenges in stemming LGBT bullying, particularly at schools where there are fewer resources and support groups such as gay-straight alliances.
“We have seen some positive signs in available resources and supportive educators and society is moving in a good direction,” GLSEN spokesman Daryl Presgraves said. “But it’s still very difficult to be an LGBT youth in school.”
In May, after coming out to friends, Jamey posted a YouTube video on the new online site, It Gets Better Project, which provides testimony from adults and celebrities to reassure troubled and potentially suicidal LGBT youth that life improves as they get older.
He wrote: “Love yourself and you’re set. … I promise you, it will get better.”
Jamey’s school counselors had advised him not to go on social media sites to talk about his sexuality, according to the Buffalo News.
Some parents urge others to monitor their children’s social networking accounts. And school principals such as Anthony Orsi of Benjamin Franklin Middle School in Ridgewood, N.J., have urged middle-school parents to outright ban the use of social networking to prevent cyberbullying.
Social media sites such as YouTube and Facebook have made it easier for bullies to target their victims, but at the same time they are sometimes the only venue for talking about their pain.
“It’s a very challenging time for parents and for youth,” Presgraves of GLSEN said. “You have a scenario where for a lot of youth, it’s the only support to go online and seek peers to give them support and to feel connected to a community. At the same time, they expose themselves to negative cyberbullying.”

It is almost like this story was pre-written before the suicide by activists with an agenda. So what happens now? They arrest by IP address and demonize some poor nerd who was trying to impress a bunch of Heathers and Jocks… it destroys his life. Then they destroy the arresting detective’s life… and in the end the real bullies move on and go to the Ivy League.  The former bullies in ten years will become your snarky social workers, activists, therapists and progressive journalists that push an agenda that is contrary to their own actions.  All the elitist pricks get to feel a moment of guilt… that makes their meaningless life have some kind of meaning. The gay kid is still dead… and the nerdy kid who left a stupid comment has his life destroyed.  The police officer who makes the arrest ends up self destructing… will it actually happen that way? I don’t know… but I’ve seen it play out that way before.  Point is that we should be encouraging people to prevent this blame game and demonization… and what we really do is continue the cycle. Meanwhile in NY our freedoms are slowly eroding because people don’t know how to deal with this kind of thing.  Everybody wants to catch the bad guy.


Cyberbully and Cyberstalker Loren Feldman 1938Media, Hackers, GoDaddy and MediaTemple are still Cybersquatting, Cyberbullying and Cyberstalking. Hacker and so called Successful Women Involved

September 6, 2011
Scary when puppeteers give psychiatric advice

…the enraged reaction shows that this certainly registered an emotional response…

…This was what was seen on Noah David Simon dot com on Wednesday September 23rd 2009. GoDaddy was warned that Loren Feldman was Cybersquatting and Harassing with bigotry and continues to promote his hate speech. …here is an example of the harassing messages Loren Feldman sends to me from the domain name he is stealing and defaming. This is not parody. this is harassment….

Godaddy_it_was_agreed between us that noahdavidsimon.com should not be on your servers at which time you wrongly switched the server to “MediaTemple“. I contacted your organization about 6 months ago about a man who is cybersquatting my name and business and is sending harrassing and at times Anti-Semitic messages from my own rightfull domain name ( this was witnessed by the Jewish Internet Defense Force and also many members of the Jewish online community. http://twitter.com/JIDF/statuses/3680124281 ) here is the icann report. Loren Feldman 1938media.com ICANN Abuse | Cairo cai.icann.org
Here is a another video of Loren Feldman harassing Igor Berger and buying his name as well as mine. Please allow me to buy my own name. What you are doing with the cybersquatting is enabling Anti-Semitism by allowing Loren Feldman to broadcast his bigotry from my name and business name. It should not take a legal team for you to do the right thing. Noah Madieros of your company suggested I take this action, but I am hoping that in light that Loren Feldman is breaking the law and is harassing the Jewish community through Anti-Semitic jokes from the domain, that action should be taken because of principle. I am also sending a copy of this email to Jewish Groups like the JIDF [PROOF] cordially, NoahDavidSimon …This was the original beef that I had with Loren Feldman. he defended a Hiemietown joke on Strumpette known as @AmandaChapel on twitter that I complained about. I had the Amanda Chapel name on facebook destroyed because it isn’t an actual person. @AmandaChapel is really a man named Brian Connolly who tried to frame myself “Noah” for rape. Strumpette is BrianConnolly’s blog.


backup: The data contained in GoDaddy.com, Inc.’s WhoIs database,Registrant: 1938 Media Registered through: GoDaddy.com, Inc. (http://www.godaddy.com) Domain Name: NOAHDAVIDSIMON.COM Domain servers in listed order: NS1.MEDIATEMPLE.NET NS2.MEDIATEMPLE.NET

Loren Feldman 1938media.com ICANN Abuse

Loren Feldman is a Cyberbully who abuses ICANN policy against Anticybersquating. See the Anticybersquatting Consumer Protection Act. Loren Feldman abuses people on the Internet by hateful attack on them via his website and domain names of his victims. Some of the prominent web people that he attacked are Dave Winer, Robert Scoble, Jason Calacanis, and Shel Israel (Loren Feldman bought and registered www.shelisrael.com with GoDaddy.com), so GoDaddy was aware of his behavior before they allowed him to by Noah and Igor’s property. Loren Feldman attacked and made fun of Shel Israel via a Puppet parody, both on 1938media.com and Shelisrael.com …Because Noah David Simon and Igor Berger stood up to Loren Feldman and alerted the Internet Social Media community of his Cyberbullying, he started attacking. He registered Noahdavidsimon.com and Igorberger.com with Godaddy.com (Loren Feldman stated in his Ustream live video that he will use the sites for parody to attack) He even said that on Igor’s domain that he will make fun of Igor’s dead mother who passed away a month before Igor’s and Noah’s name was bought. Here are the videos where he claims to have bought the domain in order to terrorize. Loren Feldman’s video message to Noah David Simon and Loren Feldman’s video message to Igor Berger These videos were originally posted by Loren Feldman on seesmic. Igor download the videos from Seesmic and uploaded them to his Youtube account as evidence. Noahdavidsimon.com is registered by 1938media Loren Felman. @salzano Corey Salzano bought Igorberger.com with Loren Feldman. He works together with Loren Feldman @1938media Loren Feldman in his Ustream live video asked Corey Salzano to buy Igorberger.com then he in Seesmic video said Loren Feldman of owned Igorberger.com
Salzano and Feldman’s relationship was recorded on Twitter. Whois record of Igorberger.com registrant is Salzano. Loren Feldman Tweeted and tormented Igor about his dead mother in a video right after his mother died by threatening to speak Latin Curses on his name by buying Igor’s and Noah’s intellectual property. Loren Feldman gloated on Twitter over getting the domain name. Corey Salzano admited he and Loren bought these domain to terrorize. Loren Feldman and Corey Salzano must return these domains to the registrar because as per Anticybersquating he cannot use these domains of other people names to profit from. Loren Feldman promotes his brand 1938media through the domains he Cybersquates on.

Wiener’s Wiener: Dem. Rep’s ‘Hacking’ Story Falls Apart?

May 31, 2011

I’m not a fan of Wiener the Macho Spaz, but I believe him here…

Over the last few days New York Congressman Anthony Wiener, a Democrat, claimed that his Twitter account had been hacked when it was revealed that “someone” sent a sexually graphic picture to a young woman in Washington State from his account.
The photo, a picture of a briefs-clad man sporting an erection, was sent to a young college student named Gennette Nicole Cordova who is a student at Whatcom Community College, Bellingham, Washington. This young woman once Tweeted that Wiener was her “boyfriend.” No one is sure what sort of relationship Wiener has with Cordova if any. But there seems to be some links.
Another reason why this is very suspicious. Miss Cordova is purported to be just some random person that the Wiener Twitter “hacker” targeted. What makes this seem less and less likely is that Miss Cordova has in the last two days gone to great lengths to try and erase herself from the Internet. She has systematically closed accounts and even removed her name from stories she wrote for her school newspaper. If she was just an innocent, random person in this story, why has she gone to such pains to try and erase herself like that? Seems more like guilt driving her actions, don’t you think?

Google Blames Being Hacked On China

not a hacker?

For his part, Rep. Wiener claims his Twitter account was hacked. This does not ring true.

WHAT? Do you have any idea how many times my twitter account has been hacked and twitter did nothing about it? Yes… I know he is a Democrat… and I don’t even really like him… but this sounds like an online sex lynch mob against a Jew. the libel doesn’t stop… even against Jews who are liberal.

Why would a hacker hack Wiener’s Twitter account to send only one photo to some girl in Washington State (who claimed to be his girlfriend) and then just leave without doing other things?

because it destroyed his reputation and the hacker did not want to stay around to get caught… duh!

Its far more likely that Wiener sent the photo himself. This elaborate “I was hacked” story does not ring true.

Weiner Calls for
Removal
of More than
700 Terrorist Videos
on YouTube…
could this be a motive
to hack his account
and destroy his life…
nah!

weiner

Failing to Recognize
Yerushalayim by Wiener

…guilty because you don’t believe people’s accounts get hacked?  that is a lot of faith for a network who was hacked by Iranian hackers. in fact I suspect some of the employees at twitter are part of the prank… but I have about as much evidence as this blogger has that Wiener wanted to destroy his life.

Anyway, whatever the case, many bloggers are having fun with this one. Stacy McCain has a great timeline of what has happened thus far. But this is the extent of my interest in the matter. Check out McCain’s post on this one for more information. via chicagonow.com

Twitter hacked by Iranian Cyber Army;
signs off with poem to Khamenei



go figure… Washington State again with the accusation against men… particularly Jewish men. I hope Wiener learns a little about what goes on in this liberal state and changes his politics. I didn’t comment before because I felt my dislike of Macho Spaz Anthony Wiener would make me biased, but after reading this you know this is a sexual lynch mob as usual from the usual place. They accuse this guy of being a predator online because they refuse to acknowledge that accounts can be hacked.

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YouTube death threat against Rep. Eric Cantor nets two-year prison term

April 28, 2011
Apparently he was stalking the
Jewish Internet Defense Force
before he went postal on Youtube…

Norman LeBoon, the man who admitted to posting a death threat against Rep. Eric Cantor on YouTube, received a two-year prison sentence Thursday. h/t @JIDF
Guess Laboon’s background!

Media_httpwwwcsmonito_fwqez

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Cyber Bullies and Hackers Targeting Successful Women?

February 16, 2011
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women are more likely to be Cyberbullies! Lori Drew a.k.a. “Josh Evans” on the witness stand
    

Cyberstalking is the use of the Internet or other electronic means to stalk or harass an individual, a group of individuals, or an organization. It may include false accusations, monitoring, making threats, identity theft, damage to data or equipment, the solicitation of minors for sex, or gathering information in order to harass. The definition of “harassment” must meet the criterion that a reasonable person, in possession of the same information, would regard it as sufficient to cause another reasonable person distress

  

a man (Loren Feldman) who is cybersquatting  my name and business and is sending harassing and at times Anti-Semitic messages from my own rightful domain name ( this was witnessed by the Jewish Internet Defense Force and also many members of the Jewish online community. http://twitter.com/JIDF/statuses/3680124281

WIPO: Cybersquatting Hits Record

Picture_10_3

The number of cybersquatting complaints reached a record in 2008, the World Intellectual Property Association reported Monday.
Geneva-based WIPO, which is charged with resolving such disputes, said there were 2,329 complaints filed with the WIPO Administration and Mediation Center last year. That’s an 8 percent increase from the year prior.
And the numbers are likely to skyrocket as the Internet Corporation for Assigned Names and Numbers is expected to launch new top-domain spaces by year’s end.
“Cybersquatting remains a serious issue for trademark holders. Supported especially by registrar and registry stakeholders, the sale and broad expansion of new top-level domains in the open market, if not properly managed, will provide abundant opportunities for cybersquatters to seize old ground in new domains,” Francis Gurry, WIPO’s general director, said in a statement.
In the last decade, when the WIPO commenced the dispute process, there have been 14,663 cybersquatting case covering 26,262 domains.
The WIPO said 30 percent of all cases were settled prior to decision. About 85 percent of the cases favored those filing the complaint.

that isn’t to say that some men don’t bully….

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